Last modified: 2007-01-20 17:07:35 UTC

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Bug 8690 - Updates to Ripuarian localisation files
Updates to Ripuarian localisation files
Status: RESOLVED FIXED
Product: MediaWiki
Classification: Unclassified
Internationalization (Other open bugs)
unspecified
All All
: Normal enhancement with 2 votes (vote)
: ---
Assigned To: Raimond Spekking
http://ksh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...
:
Depends on:
Blocks:
  Show dependency treegraph
 
Reported: 2007-01-18 14:28 UTC by dbach
Modified: 2007-01-20 17:07 UTC (History)
1 user (show)

See Also:
Web browser: ---
Mobile Platform: ---
Assignee Huggle Beta Tester: ---


Attachments
Message interface (153.01 KB, text/plain)
2007-01-18 14:36 UTC, dbach
Details
Patch based on complete message file (257.47 KB, patch)
2007-01-19 07:16 UTC, Raimond Spekking
Details

Description dbach 2007-01-18 14:28:13 UTC
A new Language Interface has been translated by [[ksh:User:Caesius|Caesius]]
according to spelling rules approved by community vote
[http://ksh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Klaaf:Schrievwies_vunn_d%C3%A4_Navvijazion_unn_d%C3%A4n_Lemmas#Einheitliche_Schrievwies_f.C3.B6r_de_Navigation].
It can be found
[http://ksh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ingerf%C3%A4j%C3%9F/MessagesKsh.php
here]. Could you upload that as default language interface? Thank you. ~~~~
Comment 1 dbach 2007-01-18 14:29:13 UTC
Alright, the wiki syntax does not work here. I hope you can read it anyway :)
Comment 2 dbach 2007-01-18 14:33:42 UTC
I must modify the request, since the URL stated above is vandalized. I attach
the new Language Interface. Please use that. Thank you. Dominik
Comment 3 dbach 2007-01-18 14:36:15 UTC
Created attachment 3092 [details]
Message interface
Comment 4 Purodha Blissenbach 2007-01-18 14:49:04 UTC
Forget about the attachment.
The correct URL for the data is:
http://ksh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Ingerf%C3%A4j%C3%9F/MessagesKsh_ksh_wreka.php

The correct file name is: MessagesKsh_ksh_wreka.php

Comment 5 Rob Church 2007-01-18 14:50:58 UTC
Can we have this as a proper patch; a unified diff against Subversion trunk,
attached to the bug report, and marked as a patch? Thanks.
Comment 6 Purodha Blissenbach 2007-01-18 15:03:50 UTC
This ia a new file, so there the diff is equal to the file data itself.
btw., when copying data, please take it from the wikisource
(strip initial and final ~3 lines) since <nowiki>...</nowiki> does not 
protect html entities (which are likely not there, but better be safe 
than sorry:)

Sorry for the hassle, that dbach has created with his premature attempt.

While this file can imho now be added to svn without problems, 
final testing of related changes has yet to be completed, and two more
modification are to follow, once that was successully finished.
Comment 7 dbach 2007-01-18 15:13:54 UTC
This file can uploaded without problem, it has been extensively tested. "Final
testing on related changes" relates to another idea of Purodha, but this will
probably take some more time and should not block the use of our new language
interface. Thank you.
Comment 8 Purodha Blissenbach 2007-01-18 19:23:01 UTC
(In reply to comment #7)
Nothing is blocked, as already stated above.
Comment 9 Raimond Spekking 2007-01-18 19:39:28 UTC
I will prepare the patch
Comment 10 Raimond Spekking 2007-01-19 07:16:20 UTC
Created attachment 3095 [details]
Patch based on complete message file

Patch based on complete message file, messages for extensions moved to them.
For questions on this patch and further patches please contact me at [[de:user
talk:Raymond]] (in standard German if possible ;-) ).

Already commited as r19464
Comment 11 dbach 2007-01-19 07:56:36 UTC
I am sorry I do not understand the technical details - but the patch you
provided is quite different from the file
http://ksh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Ingerf%C3%A4j%C3%9F/MessagesKsh_ksh_wreka.php.


See, for example, skin names
- in the patch:
$skinNames = array(
-	'standard'      => 'Shtandad',
-	'nostalgia'     => 'Noßtalljesh',
-	'cologneblue'   => 'Kölsch Blau',
-	'smarty'        => 'Päddingtonn',
-	'montparnasse'  => 'Mont_Panaßß',
-	'davinci'       => 'Da_Vintshi',
-	'mono'          => 'Monno',
-	'monobook'      => 'MonnoBooch',
-	'myskin'        => 'Ming_Skin',
-	'chick'         => 'Küüke'
+        'standard'      => 'Standaad',
+        'nostalgia'     => 'Nostaljesch',
+        'cologneblue'   => 'Kölsch Blau',
+        'smarty'        => 'Päddington',
+        'montparnasse'  => 'Mont Panass',
+        'davinci'       => 'Da_Vintschi',
+        'mono'          => 'Mono',
+        'monobook'      => 'MonoBoch',
+        'myskin'        => 'Ming Skin',
+        'chick'         => 'Höhnche'
 );

in the original file:

$skinNames = array(
        'standard'      => 'Standaad',
        'nostalgia'     => 'Nostaljesch',
        'cologneblue'   => 'Kölsch Blau',
        'smarty'        => 'Päddington',
        'montparnasse'  => 'Mont Panass',
        'davinci'       => 'Da_Vintschi',
        'mono'          => 'Mono',
        'monobook'      => 'MonoBoch',
        'myskin'        => 'Ming Skin',
        'chick'         => 'Höhnche'

I am wrong here?

Thank you for your explanation
Dominik
Comment 12 dbach 2007-01-19 07:57:38 UTC
Is it so that every value set before has to be deleted and a new value added?
Comment 13 Raimond Spekking 2007-01-19 08:08:53 UTC
My patch is a diff against the old language file. We cannot copy a complete file
to the servers. BTW: there were several errors in the file.

I have copied&pasted section by section, so there are little differences by
spacings but the value remains unchanged (e.g. 'Kölsch Blau')

Comment 14 dbach 2007-01-19 08:14:24 UTC
Thank you! Concerning errors: anything we should do about them now? 
Comment 15 Raimond Spekking 2007-01-19 08:36:45 UTC
The actual file can be downloaded from
http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/phase3/languages/messages/MessagesKsh.php?view=log

But another issue I see now: the tooltips where moved from monobook.js to
separate messages with r19036 (see r19100 for actual message names). You have to
check and readd.
Comment 16 Rob Church 2007-01-19 09:01:08 UTC
(In reply to comment #12)
> Is it so that every value set before has to be deleted and a new value added?

Subversion works on "diffs", so if a line gets changed, it'll show up in the
patch prefixed with a "-", with the replacement line under it (prefixed with a "+").

In general, we prefer normal patches because it makes it so much easier for
someone to review the changes on BugZilla, and integrate them into MediaWiki.
Comment 17 Purodha Blissenbach 2007-01-19 09:32:18 UTC
See
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:Raymond
The suggestion, that dbach made, was wrong. He should have better let that be handled by people who already know better, 
waaht to do.
Comment 18 Purodha Blissenbach 2007-01-19 10:23:25 UTC
A quick rundown of what should be done (before Raimond Spekking made the patch, and once debugging/testing was completed):
1. create MessagesKsh_ksh_wreka.php from http://ksh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Ingerf%C3%A4j%C3%9F/
MessagesKsh_ksh_wreka.php
2. create MessagesKsh_ksh_rt.php from http://ksh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Ingerf%C3%A4j%C3%9F/
MessagesKsh_ksh_rt.php
3. update MessagesKsh.php from http://ksh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Ingerf%C3%A4j%C3%9F/MessagesKsh.php

With the goal to have two variants of Ripuarian to choose from, with a default (fallback) set in MessagesKsh.php

What can we do now?
Imho: 1. Remove the patch, rework it so as to create MessagesKsh_ksh_wreka.php and insert 'ksh_ksh_wreka' messages for 
extensions. Then appy reworked patch.
2. Possibly create MessagesKsh_ksh_rt.php mainly as a copy of previous MessagesKsh.php

Other things imho have to wait until bugs are fixed and testing was successful.

MessagesKsh_ksh_rt.php - There is one known bug to be fixed, and several text updates pending but not complete/tested. 
Maybe, we can already supply a 1st chunk of them already soon.

MessagesKsh.php setting fallback - does not work in test installation. Yields blank pages and other problems, likely 
related with $extraUserToggles and nolangconversion.
Comment 19 dbach 2007-01-19 10:43:21 UTC
The problem here is not my lack of technical knowledge, but rather the totally
different agenda that Purodha and me are following:

- Purodha wants several dialect variants
- we (e.g. the main active users of the ksh-wikipedia: Caesius, Jan Wellem, and
Jüppsche) want at least one working interface in the main dialect, and possibly
also other variants, if this is technically feasible. If this is not feasible
right now, we would rather have ONE interface in the main dialect FOR THE MEANTIME. 

This is what I meant when I said: Purodha wants to test some related ideas, but
that should not block us from using the new interface
Comment 20 Raimond Spekking 2007-01-19 10:58:03 UTC
Folks, please be agreed. What is the main dialect? Is the actual patch good for
all? Should we revert? 

I do not know if someone will code a language/dialect conversion. Maybe we can
use separate ksh message files as complete distinct languages. But I do not know
where in MediaWiki I can add another language.
Comment 21 dbach 2007-01-19 12:00:39 UTC
Okay, let's clarify that. In August, a vote was held, and it came out that
everybody but Purodha wanted the interface changed to a documented spelling of
Cologne dialect. 

The vote can be found here: 
http://ksh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Klaaf:Schrievwies_vunn_d%C3%A4_Navvijazion_unn_d%C3%A4n_Lemmas#V.C3.BCrschlag

For non-ripuarian speakers: 
7 pro votes were by Düüvelskääl/dbach, Caesius, Manes, Jan Wellem, Jüppsche,
Schäl Sick, Thidrek
1 contra vote was by Purodha 

Caesius translated the new interface and finished it yesterday. In the meantime,
a compromise was proposed by Purodha: to have different dialect/spelling
coversions. Purodha promised that could be done soon from the technical side,
and although no formal vote was held, I am sure that everybody would agree if it
works, as long as the new interface is the default for new users. 

As I understand, however, coversions do not work right now. Therefore, the vote
is simple and clear: the new patch is what the community wants. 
Comment 22 dbach 2007-01-19 12:02:38 UTC
(PS concerning the vote: 8 pro votes instead of 7, I forgot to count Helesike)
Comment 23 Purodha Blissenbach 2007-01-19 12:06:57 UTC
One problem is dbach's lack of technical background knowledge, another may be his 
unwillingness to cooperate, listen, discuss, whatsoever, paired with lack of trust 
and false insinuatios from his side. If he was listening, he knew that Purodha is 
developing exactly what the majority in various discussions (inside and outside the 
Ripuarian Wikipedia) deemed necessary & workable, and the he shall be getting exactly
what he wants, only not exclusively that.

> I do not know if someone will code a language/dialect conversion.

This is planned but not likely to be workable in the very near future. Thus we will 
begin with a null-conversion similar to what the Serbian, and several others, started
off with.

> Maybe we can use separate ksh message files as complete distinct languages.

I think, we can.
That would mean, following the suggestion already made, to add MessagesKsh_ksh_wreka.php
and MessagesKsh_ksh_rt.php now or rsn, after reverting the current patch which 
is both wrong, and almost completely useless as it does not what dbach inteded with it.

> But I do not know where in MediaWiki I can add another language.

I do know all that, have it ready in a test installation that the author of the
MessagesKsh_ksh_wreka.php translation has been using, and I shall come up with the 
due patches once I have done the necessary final steps. 
(I hate supplying half-ready stuff)

Comment 24 Purodha Blissenbach 2007-01-19 12:14:28 UTC
Almost all of the above statement (comment #21) by dbach which collided with 
mine (comment #23) is wrong, biased, incomplete, and certainly of no concern here. 

dbach's only concern and focus is the Ripuarian Wikipedia. Here is not the place to
carry out fights internal to a specific Wiki.

So as to further the development of MediaWiki software, I suggest to ignore him,
proceed as suggested before, and whe the work is done, he will see that he has gotten,
what he has been so vigorously fighting for.
Comment 25 dbach 2007-01-19 12:27:33 UTC
Purodha is very right that I am concerned about the ripuarian wikipedia. But
aren't we discussing a patch for the ripuarian message interface?

Purodha is also right concerning my lack of trust into him, which is shared by
Caesius, Jan Wellem, and Jüppsche, who have proposed yesterday to take away
Purodha's administrator rights in the Ripuarian wikipedia should he any longer
block the new message interface. The community is quite tired after 5 months of
cooperating, listening, discussing with Purodha who uses his technical knowledge
and his robots to dominate the Ripuarian Wikipedia and has successfully used it
as a platform to promote a dialect transcription that he invented, and which is
interesting, but the majority finds it very hard to read. 

Please don't hesitate to use the new patch. As soon as Purodha has completed his
testing, we will be happy to have different interfaces at the same time. For the
meantime, which is likely to last longer than just a few days, the ripuarian
wikipedia needs a workable solution.
Comment 26 Rob Church 2007-01-19 14:28:33 UTC
All right, that is *enough*.

Our bug tracker is *not* the place to have this argument.

If there are further updates to be made to the Ripuarian language file, please
submit the appropriate patches attached to a new bug.

If there are new localisations, e.g. language variants, please open a new bug
report, *clearly label* what it's about, and attach patches.

"MessagesKsh.php" should contain "pure" Ripuarian strings, if there is such a thing.
Comment 27 Purodha Blissenbach 2007-01-19 14:34:56 UTC
He does not understand it:
- Here we are concerned with MediaWiki, not the Wikipedia.
- His proposed patch does not provide what he wants.
- Caesius delivered his final version yesterday. Now I am going to integrate it with the rest, starting the day after 
tomorrow. Had not dbach kept me busy responding to his counterproductive interventions at various places, I had started 
already earlier today.
(I apologize for dbach's inconsiderate behaviour, and lies)
Comment 28 Purodha Blissenbach 2007-01-19 14:40:15 UTC
(comment #27 crossed with comment #26)

Thank you Rob, I very much agree with you.

> "MessagesKsh.php" should contain "pure" Ripuarian strings, if there is such a thing.

There are several dozen dialects/spellings. Hence we need switching betweeen variants.
I'll get that done, and submit the patches.
Comment 29 dbach 2007-01-19 15:31:38 UTC
I am sorry, I was sure we had already reached an agreement within the ripuarian
wikipedia, which was apparently not the case. As ksh-Admin I will now try to
solve that first, and then submit the issue again. Anyway, thank you for now. 
Comment 30 Purodha Blissenbach 2007-01-20 17:07:35 UTC
Just for the records:
There was an agreement on the Ripuarian WP indeed.
I communicated exactly what was agreed upon,
once dbach asked here for something else (wilfully or out of technical incompetence, afaik he's not a programmer) At 
least he did not tell anybody, or coordinate what he was doing, otherwise the trouble had been avoided.

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